Timing - when to come in.

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Timing - when to come in.

Postby kingb » Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:52 am

A question for drummers in particular.

In, say a standard 4/4 with a one and a half note lead-in, and where the drummer taps in 4 beats to start the song, does the lead guitarist come in just after the 3rd beat (ánd 4 and') with the rest of the band starting on the first beat of the next bar, or does the lead begin on the first beat of the next bar, with he rest of the band coming in one and a half beats later? Or is there some other way?

Hope I made the question clear - it's a bit tricky putting into words.



:)
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Postby TC90 » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:36 am

I'm an ex-blues drummer turned guitar player, and I think I see what you're trying to say. My answer would be "it depends on the song". Whatever works, as long as everybody in the band is on the same page.

When we played, sometimes I would click off a song, sometimes the guitar player would start with a riff, other songs the bass player would start with a bass line, and the vocalist would sometimes start with just singing. It really depends on the song and what you want it to sound like.

Hope this helps... and keep on Bluesin'! 8)
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Postby jaybee » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:52 am

keep it simple: if the drummer counts in he's counting 1 2 3 4 so if the band needs to come in on 1, you had better start on the [3]'and' or it's going to feel VERY weird IMHO...
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Postby bosco » Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:22 am

Not sure exactly what you mean by a "one and a half note lead in" but I recommend that whomever starts the song, be it guitar, bass, keys or vocals start on the one and everyone else join in one and a half counts later. (to answer your particular question)

My band plays over a hundred songs and I can't think of a single one where anyone begins on the three. That sounds like a recipe to screw things up from the start. I think folks get too caught up in counting off every song. Not every song requires a stick click intro or a count in. Sometimes its just better to have the guitar or bass start playing the main riff, have 'em play it twice to establish the pattern and then the have the whole band come in on the third one count.

I'm not a drummer, I play harp and guitar, so maybe I don't understand what you are asking...

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Postby jaybee » Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:04 pm

if you have an intro that starts with a couple of notes before the 1, it's always best to count off, so everyone knows the tempo you're going to play in, the lead starts the intro on the appropriate count, the rest falls in on the next "1". A lot of numbers start that way, either with a lick that starts on "3and" (mostly three 8th notes) or on the "4" (often with an 8th triplet). starting your count with 1 when that phrase begins, is going to screw up things, since the drummer's 1 is going to be off 1and a half or 1 beat.

example: T-Bone Shuffle: if you start counting 1 when the opening rif begins you are going to be lost, it starts on "3and" (one 8th note and one quarter note on "4", the third note is actually the "one")
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Postby bosco » Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:31 pm

Thanks, Jaybee, you are 100% correct and that is a perfect explanantion.

My last post was crap and I don't know what I was thinking. Fresh from a gig this past Saturday night, there were all kinds of songs where the intro started on the "3 and" and everyone else came in on the next "1".

As a harper most of this does not pertain to me, I only know when it doesn't sound right. Perhaps I should refrain from participating in such discussions!

:oops:

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Postby jaybee » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:07 pm

bosco wrote:Thanks, Jaybee, you are 100% correct and that is a perfect explanantion.Bosco


thx for the compliment

bosco wrote:My last post was crap and I don't know what I was thinking. Fresh from a gig this past Saturday night, there were all kinds of songs where the intro started on the "3 and" and everyone else came in on the next "1". Bosco

no post is ever crap (well some are, but then they are of a quite different nature) - you just posted what you felt was right, but were intelligent enough to consider what I had to say and man enough to admit you were wrong. In my book, that makes you the kind of guy I'd like to meet and share a couple of beers with (after which we'll definitely start less intelligent conversation 8) )


bosco wrote:As a harper most of this does not pertain to me, I only know when it doesn't sound right. Bosco


As a harper you're most likely the one starting off the majority of songs, so you're not "challenged" with coming in on time like a drummer or bass player is, and knowing when it doesn't sound right is far more important than knowing the "theory" behind it. That means you'll get it right most of the time and fix it if you get it wrong, unlike one guy I heard at a jam a couple of weeks ago, who was talking the talk before and after playing, but insisted on playing a "1" when the rest of the band was at "4" and kept it up for an ENTIRE (extended - 3 soloists) version of Stormy Weather - dispite panicky/angry/disgusted looks from the singer and the rest of the musicians on stage...



bosco wrote:Perhaps I should refrain from participating in such discussions!Bosco


perhaps I should too, but then I wouldn't have learnt a lot of things I know now, since I only learnt them because someone pointed out I was mistaken in the fist place.
And next time you might tell me something I don't know, which will not be the case if you don't join in the discussion...
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