Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

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Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby doc williamson » Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:30 pm

I am transferring some posts from a good thread to this one:

dblues wrote on July 25, 2005:

>Mike, Db and C# are the same keys.
Technically speaking, they are not, but they of course sound the same.
Later,it's time to make some music

Richochet wrote on July 25, 2005:

>Technically speaking, they are not, but they of course sound
>the same.
In equal temperament, that is.

Doc Williamson wrote on July 27, 2005:

DB and Dr. Ric you both must be pianists and not piano players. This mental masturbation talk of Db and C# probably has some kind of merit as a footnote in Music Theory but personally I would much rather hear a piano player play some blues in that/those one/two keys. See, you got me talking crazy now. That key has a dark heavy vibe for a song.
Someone here on BRB has a quote on his tag line that fits this Db/C# thing very appropriately, "Play it?...Just hit the damn thing."

Doc Williamson wrote on July 27, 2005:

My previous two posts on this thread have probably been the harshest and most judgmental posts I have ever posted here on BRB. No smiley faces or anything. I take Ray Charles and his songs too seriously and personally and that is the way it is. I am sorry if this offends anyone.
Secondly, if you want to discuss the difference between Db/C#, Gb/F#, Eb/D#, Ab/G#, Bb/A# please start a new thread titled "Music Theory & Masturbation" but please don't soil a thread titled "Ray and Drown In My Own Tears."

Truthfully, I would like to know (technically speaking) the difference in those keys (notes) but the only reason I can think of is because the key signature on sheet music is notated that way. If there is another reason I would like to know. I know only a little about piano playing and sight reading but am willing to learn more and would be thankful for the help.

I don't think there is such a notation as Fb/E, Cb/B but would be interested to know if there is.
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RE: Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby barbequebob » Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:59 am

Personally, learning theory can be done for ANY instrument, regardless of what it is. I know most harmonica players, when it comes to music theory, are often clueless as a general rule and an excellent freebie website for learning theory that won't intimidate anyone and walks you thru everything is http://www.musictheory.net.
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RE: Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby ricochet » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:43 am

I can't really claim to be either a pianist or a piano player. I do like to play at it, though.

I was merely pointing out an interesting historical fact, that in Pythagorean and various just temperament systems C# and Db aren't the same note. They're pretty close, though. In those tuning systems, you can only play in one key and have your scale intervals perfectly right. Certain keys will sound horrifically bad. Equal temperament puts every interval except the octave a bit out of tune, an amount that those of us who grew up with it find tolerable, so that we can play in any key and none will sound any worse than others. It's a great invention that took a lot of careful thought and experimentation over several centuries, and several of its proponents were imprisoned or killed for it. All so that we now have the option to "just play it" without thinking about how any of it works.

"A cheerful heart is good medicine."
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RE: Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby ricochet » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:46 am

Oh, yeah. The book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 8&v=glance

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RE: Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby meilankev » Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:31 am

Thank goodness I don't know which key is C-sharp (or D-flat for that matter). :P

Because if they "are the same note" and they "are not the same note" all at the same time, my head would begin to hurt.

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RE: Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby dblues » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:10 pm

Hahahahahhahahahahaahahhahaha! Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. Sorry. As Doc says "Just Play"


Later,it's time to make some music
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RE: Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby ricochet » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:17 pm

At the moment, I'm picking out OLD Christmas songs in Open G on slide guitar. (Just figured out "The March of the Kings" and "Lo, How A Rose E'er Blooming.")

"A cheerful heart is good medicine."
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RE: Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby doc williamson » Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:27 pm

I always thought John Fahey's solo guitar interpertation of "Joy To The World" was the most moving Christmas song I ever heard

UNTIL....

Ray Charles came out with his Christmas album. Not every cut is great but some are outstanding.

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"I chose to sing the blues." Ray Charles
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RE: Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby doc williamson » Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:52 pm

I have found great value in knowing the little bit about music theory that I have. It is much easier for me in learning a song by ear or writing a song to think through what the chord possibilities could be before finger f-cking every key on the piano until I find the correct note or chord.

Dr. Ric ~ Thank you for your historic explanation on temperment. To think that men were imprisoned and killed just so we could all play together in tune humbles me. I had never heard the term "temperment" until I was in New Orleans in the mid 80s. I had a request for "Whiter Shade of Pale" and remembered it from playing in bands in the 60s. I found out it was a violin player who requested it and he told me the song is based on Bach's "The Well Tempered Instrument" or something like that.

Fred ~ Thank you for your very kind email. I would like to call and talk with you sometime. I am very busy putting my music store, eBay seller service store and gigs together, I don't have much time. But I always have time for friends and music.

I'm off to host a great blues jam tonight at 8:00 and have to get going.

http://www.DocWilliamson.com

"I chose to sing the blues." Ray Charles
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RE: Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby ricochet » Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:40 am

[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-05 AT 08:43 PM (EST)]>he told me
>the song is based on Bach's "The Well Tempered Instrument"
>or something like that.

Google on the phrase "Well Tempered Clavier" and you'll be amazed at what turns up.

BTW, the organ part of "Whiter Shade of Pale" was played on a standard little Hammond M-102 spinet.


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RE: Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby badfinger » Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:34 am

[updated:LAST EDITED ON Jul-29-05 AT 04:35 AM (EST)]">the song is based on Bach's "The Well Tempered Instrument"... "

It had nothing to do with "The Well Tempered Klavier" ("The 48"); part of the melody of "Whiter Shade" copies JSB's Cantata 140, "Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme" (aka "Sleepers Awake").

The main part, however (the bit everyone hums) is based on the second movement of Bach's Suite in D (or "Air on a G String"); if you hear that, you will definitely recognise "A Whiter Shade".


"or something like that"
Shame on you! You ought to stay in more!


PS: why do typos only show up after posting?
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RE: Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby ricochet » Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:40 pm

>PS: why do typos only show up after posting?

I have the same problem. Anyway, there's some cool stuff in "The Well Tempered Clavier," too.



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RE: Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby badfinger » Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:43 am

"there's some cool stuff in..."

Ric, I think you just qualified as an honorary Englishman by such understatement.
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RE: Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby ricochet » Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:21 pm

Thanks, bf.

"A cheerful heart is good medicine."
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RE: Music Theory,,,,For The Fun Of It All

Postby papatex » Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:06 am

It's been my experience that ~all~ masturbation is a good 90% mental.
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