Anti-smoking laws

Problems, how to get them, favorite songs to play, groupies, funky bar owners, etc. NO names of clubs, please.

Postby bosco » Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:23 pm

a bar owner should have the right to decide whether he allows or bans smoking

That one is right on the money. I have several friends that own bars and they all echo that. "Give us the choice", don't tell us what we have to do.

if non smoking bars had been profitable, there would have been plenty around town years ago

Gump, you're a g*d*mn genius! :lol:
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Postby jaybee » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:16 pm

NEONMOONY wrote:Songdog wrote
It's happening everywhere and for the good of us all.


Politicians determine what's good for us? So, gambling is good for us? The money will decide what is or isn't good for us. Maybe they'll decide drinking or sausage pizza isn't good for us. or maybe Blues music. Yippee. It doesn't have a d*$n thing to do with what's good for us or we'd all have the same benefits they do..


Amen to that man!!!
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Postby songdog » Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:39 pm

NEONMOONY wrote:Songdog wrote
It's happening everywhere and for the good of us all.


Politicians determine what's good for us? So, gambling is good for us? The money will decide what is or isn't good for us. Maybe they'll decide drinking or sausage pizza isn't good for us. or maybe Blues music. Yippee. It doesn't have a d*$n thing to do with what's good for us or we'd all have the same benefits they do..


Well we all have our opinions on what's good for us and what's not. But it IS a proven fact that cigarette smoking is not a good thing. I kicked the habit after 15 years of smoking and am happy I did. AND I don't really care to be around cigarette smoke anymore whether it be in a bar, restaurant, outdoor event, or even walking in and out of a building.

And while yes, there are those in politics that feel they need to determine what's good for us and what's not, I'm pretty sure these smoking bans are being driven and supported by the people, otherwise they wouldn't be happening. If you're a smoker, you're in the minority, and minorities typically loose come election time.

I feel for the small bar owners that are losing business and wish there was a way for them to stay open. Seems to me they should be allowed to form private clubs and once you're a club member you can do anything you want inside. But something like that would probably be too difficult for the politicians to figure out.
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Postby songdog » Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:53 pm

And just as a follow up - we can argue the merits of smoking vs. non-smoking all day long but that would be beating a dead horse. These bans are obviously popular with the non-smokers cause they will now be able to go out without be subjected to the poor air.

However, the real reason the government is getting envolved is for the health issues.... not those of the smokers but those of the non-smokers. As it has now been proven that second hand smoke is unhealthy the government is taking steps to provide a healthy environment for the non-smoking public which is the majority in most places. While I'm against the govenrment telling me what I can and cannot do, (from the issue of second-hand smoke) these bans are no different than the government telling us we can't drink until we turn 21, we can't drive while intoxicated, we can't carry loaded guns into schools, etc. i.e. the laws aren't meant to protect you from yourself, they are meant to protect the rest of us from you.

The government isn't likely to ban blues music just because it's determined to be bad for you, but if after listening to blues music studies show that you are very likely to go down the street and shoot your neighbor, then it might be fair game :lol:
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Postby bigdaddy » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:54 pm

I live in Ogden Utah, up near the north end of the state. What's funny about the last post is that most, 99.9%, of the food you buy in cans cartons bags or containers is bad for you. The big food companies put some wicked chemicals in them and our congress allows this. I think if you don't want smoke, I don't smoke,then stay out of a bar. Bars have always been a place for people to go to get away from their problems. People have fallen onto the tracks at amusement parks and lost limbs and even killed. If this scares you then don't go to an amusement park. I also agree with the other point of view that employees shouldn't have to work in a smoke filled enviroment. I see it as stomping on a person's rights to own and operate his own business. Big government is never a good thing.
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Postby ricochet » Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:01 pm

You want to know who's really driving it? Insurance companies. (Who have by far the most powerful lobby in the U.S.) They don't want to have to pay claims for workers allegedly harmed by working in a smoke-filled environment.
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Postby bosco » Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:40 am

You want to know who's really driving it? Insurance companies. (Who have by far the most powerful lobby in the U.S.) They don't want to have to pay claims...

Yup. They make the call on a lot of issues- seat belts, helmets, smoking.

Diehard veteran hunters, like myself, have insisted for years that the deer are being overharvested and deer numbers are way down, which they are. It's not uncommon now to hunt an entire day without seeing a deer.....that never would have happened even 10 years ago. There are 50,000 car/deer collisions in Michigan each year on average. Never mind that it usually happens to inexperienced drivers like teenage girls yapping on cell phones... I've avoided hundreds of such collisions over 35 years of driving just by paying attention. Imagine that.

Anyway, the insurance lobby pressured the Michigan DNR to the point where they just started selling doe permits over the counter 7 or 8 years ago when they had previously been issued by lottery. If a meat hunter doesn't care about trophy antlers, he can basically harvest as many deer as he wants to as long as he keeps buying tags.

Never underestimate the power of the insurance lobby. Signed.

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Postby jellyroll baker » Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:29 am

Does anyone watch Pen & Tellers Bulls..t show? Kind of like Mythbusters, only funnier and with more swearing. They had a fantastic episode the other week where they took the statistics against passive smoking and ripped them to shreds. You might be surprised when you read what the "alarming" reports **really** say.
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Postby NEONMOONY » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:32 pm

Hey Songdog, I don't smoke either. My point was simply that it doesn't have anything to do with what's good for you, or even the votes. It's the money driving it (or as Rico said the insurance company lobbies). Some legislation may be purely out of public benefit, but a great deal of it is passed by the stronger lobbies.

I happen to be in the capital building a few years ago when China was pushing for a more favorable trade status. Any congressman's office you walked into, the staff was buzzing about all the stuff the Chinese trade lobby was giving out to virtually everybody. Perhaps it was indeed, the best thing for our country but after that and a few similar experiences, I left with the awful feeling that mostly, the place is for sale to the high bidder. They obviously have not left the impression on lobbies that such lobbying is useless.
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Postby nizer » Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:29 pm

I say pot, ok, but no addictive drugs like tobacco.
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Postby bigdaddy » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:02 pm

Okay, no smoking is coming to Utah. Will the "do gooders" who opted for this law now go to the bars? Good question. I don't smoke nor do I drink. I like going to bars and checking out the live music. Gotta see if they're better or worse than my band. Unless I am playing in a bar I only stay for the first set or so. I have noticed lately that the bars are not as smoky as they use to be. I'd like all these "do gooders" to come and support live music. I have yet to see a congressman or senator in any bars around here. People, I fear big government running our lives. It will be your homes next. They will knock on your door and if they smell cigs your butt is going to get a ticket.
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Postby jaybee » Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:51 am

ricochet wrote:You want to know who's really driving it? Insurance companies. (Who have by far the most powerful lobby in the U.S.) They don't want to have to pay claims for workers allegedly harmed by working in a smoke-filled environment.


so are they gong to ban roadbuilding? a lot of road workiers get killed during their job
and mining, flying, boats, cars, bikes, bycicles, cooking, building, walking....

actually a lot of accidents happen at home, so... BAN HOMES!!

why not ban living, after all don' we all start dying the moment we' re born, now we can't have THAT can we... :shock:

they also should do some intensive googling (I don't have the time now): a Dutch university calculated the difference in cost to the community of smokers vs non-smokers, and the non-smokers were a LOT more expensive, mainly due to the fact that they live longer and medical costs rise with age AND because they don't fill the taxman's pockets like smokers do... the full paper on the research is out there on the www somewhere...
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Postby NEONMOONY » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:01 am

I thought they banned smoking in Utah bars years ago unless they were the private clubs. At least the public establishments in Salt Lake that I fraternized didn't allow it. You couldn't get more than one round of drinks at a time either. However, if you payed something like two dollars to become a member of a private business concern, it was no problem.
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Postby bigdaddy » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:17 pm

I found out that Utah goes smoke free at the first of the year. I am mixed about that. No smoke in my lungs and all over my gear sounds nice but then these are private clubs. I am mixed about it. When I drag my amp in to my house after a gig, carpet covered, the thing stinks. When I wake up the next day my clothes stink, hair stinks, everything stinks. It'll be nice to not have that anymore.
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Postby watertore » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:37 pm

bigdaddy wrote:I found out that Utah goes smoke free at the first of the year. I am mixed about that. No smoke in my lungs and all over my gear sounds nice but then these are private clubs. I am mixed about it. When I drag my amp in to my house after a gig, carpet covered, the thing stinks. When I wake up the next day my clothes stink, hair stinks, everything stinks. It'll be nice to not have that anymore.


you will never go back to a smoking club again! We are going on 11 years of smoke free here in Ca. I would rather quit than play in a smoky place. I am all for private smoking clubs. If people want to kill themselves, fine, just don't lay it on me too. Walter
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