Bottleneck vs. “slide”

A discussion of techniques, and equipment for guitar. Fretted, bottleneck or slide, acoustic or electric, this is the place.

Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby slickcat » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:43 pm

5_iron wrote:Please inform Jerry Douglas (or any other skilled lap style player) that it is not possible for him to hammer on, hammer off, damp with fretted fingers, damp with strumming hand, etc. while using a metal bar. Please...

For that matter, try slanting harmonized thirds at breakneck Bluegrass speeds with a bottleneck.

Bottleneck and Steel are both beautiful techniques with many capabilities unique to each style. There is some obvious crossover (particularly in the Blues genre), and I'd agree bottleneck is more commonly suited to delta style blues, if that is indeed your point. If so, that's a pretty weak case for railing against the whole field of steel guitar.

5-iron

+1 ............only someone who doesnt know about slide playing or lap steel playing would post that Steel players are limited. What a joke!! :D :roll:
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Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby ricochet » Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:26 am

Call me an old cynic, but I've been seeing a lot of "viral marketing" posts from new members to boards lately, usually tied with some message intended to be more or less of topical interest to the board, and that unsolicited screed sounded like it might have been copied from someone's diatribe elsewhere. Smells like spam to me. Or maybe tofu. (Who knows what the difference really is?)
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Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby tobiepsg » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:04 am

He he! There was not much response on the starting post by the time I chipped in, so I thought the author thereof was going to get away with that crap. I'm glad to have established that the phpBB'ists are not that uninformed after all... !!! :D :D :D
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Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby too2tall » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:15 am

To me they are two different animals. The lap steel has the ability to use tunings you can't use on a round neck guitar.
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Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby zhyla » Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:33 pm

rustyslide wrote:eir signature to their website, the same one that hosts a page about her nine-string resonator. I hardly think that's inappropriate, and have reinstated the links.


Whoops! Sorry bout that. I hadn't looked at the 9-string page, my mistake. This still smells like spam to me, but at least there's an interesting guitar involved.
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Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby laurieforti » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:19 pm

>… Typically a long post like this would be written in response to a query from another member, or, if it's the start of a thread, have a preamble or conclusion broaching discussion or other contribution.
. . . . .Anyone understand this?

> … My initial response was exactly like Dan's.
. . . . No meaningful or relevant discussion, just shameful self-promotion?

> … Assuming this is the start of a discussion and not a sermon from on-high telling us how we're all wrong:
. . . . You will please notice that I, unlike most, offer reasons that support my opinions. This is to foster meaningful discussion. So, could you please hold the pejoratives and respond to the issues, not interjecting insults?

> … I object strongly to using the term "bottleneck" to refer to the tubes of pyrex, porcelain, chrome, and brass that I stick on my finger to slide around on the guitar strings bottleneck style, as the items in question are demonstrably not the eponymous necks of bottles.
. . . . .What, if anything, is this supposed to mean? The –geometry- of necks of bottles, HINT: hollow cylinders, is IDENTICAL regardless of the material of construction.
> … Please inform Jerry Douglas (or any other skilled lap style player) that it is not possible for him to hammer on, hammer off, damp with fretted fingers, damp with strumming hand, etc.

. . . . And, I forgot slapping the strings, like common to Delta Blues guys: Charley Patton, Big Joe Williams, …

. . . . How come you understood my main thesis, the two styles (Bottleneck and Hawaiian Slide style), are very different because bottleneck has many more techniques that Sliders do not have. Therefore, bottleneck has superior stylistic variance, and is more musically-complex and rich.

>… that's a pretty weak case for railing against the whole field of steel guitar
. . . . .I am not “railing against” anything, except pointing out how erroneous terminology confuses the issue, and impedes meaningful conversation.

Calling two very different things the same name is intellectually lazy and sloppy.
> … few guitars set up with extra string pairs like yours, set up by "Train Wreck" in Berkeley. A nice idea.
. . . . Any pictures possible?

> … Of course, many guitarists play in keys other than the one naming the open chord that the guitar is tuned to …
…. I think the concept was that I have never heard anyone else play Delta Blues in C and D in Open G. Has anyone?

> … Without hammer-on's & pull-off's "slide" playing (your term) …
. . . .Missed the point? I do not use the term “slide guitar” for the reasons stated repeatedly.

> … Damping them with the right hand is done with almost every note / chord played, otherwise the strings would just keep on ringing. In fact, this is the first technique to master when you pick up your first steel bar.
. . . . .Right-hand damping sounds different in Delta style; it has a distinctive dull , thudding sound; I doubt if lap steel folks do that.

> … Bending is done by a lot of guys - by pulling strings with the "extra" fingers behind the steel bar.
. . . . Bent strings sound different in Blues because the string is held down against the frets while bending. An open string ¼” over the frets can not produce the same dynamic.

>… other than having frets available on "bottleneck" style, most of the other techniques can be done much faster & more efficiently on "slide" guitar!
. . . . can’t do the same bending (as mentioned above), can’t slap strings, can’t hammer on, or off (the bar would produce clunking if this were tried), … can’t hold a fingered chord and twiddle other strings, can’t barre and bottleneck simultaneously, …

> … Just to strengthen my point above - try this without any of the the techniques discussed:
. . . . Flashy, and soul-less, but not Delta Blues, nor Blues of any kind. The discussion was started in reference to Delta Blues.

> … It's definitely spam in that it has links that have nothing to do with this forum.
. . . . Never heard of sig files? Spam refers to commercial advertising; there is none in my posts.

> … only someone who doesnt know about slide playing or lap steel playing would post that Steel players are limited.
. . . . Are you knowledgeable enough to try to discuss the limitations I enumerated? Or are insults all you have?
. . . . The most severe and obvious limitations of steel players is that they CAN’T play Delta Blues, so discussions of “steel” are Off Topic for this discussion.

> … To me they are two different animals. The lap steel has the ability to use tunings you can't use on a round neck guitar.
. . . . .Agreed, my point is that the styles are so different and orthogonal, that calling them the same name is misleading, confusing, and intellectually lazy.

> … This still smells like spam to me, but at least there's an interesting guitar involved.
. . . . .Spam is unsolicited COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING; I would never do that. But, this false accusation is another perfect example of the ignorant not understanding the meaning of a word, and therefore causing false accusations and pejorative and false accusations. An illustrative example of the same lack of respect for the language we speak; thanks for emphasizing my point.

. . . . .Laurie
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Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby tobiepsg » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:39 pm

Bent strings sound different in Blues because the string is held down against the frets while bending. An open string ¼” over the frets can not produce the same dynamic


It might. With 'slide' playing it is held up against the bar - and it might produce the same or other dynamics. Depends who's doing the bending and a lot of other factors.

can’t slap strings, can’t hammer on, or off (the bar would produce clunking if this were tried)


Sorry mate, this time you're displaying a lack of knowledge. Hammer-on/off is one of the most common techniques on resonator guitars. Only accomplished players can do it well without the 'clunking' you refer to.

Slapping strings & using frets - that's just about the only not-found's on resonators, for obvious reasons.

Why blow a gasket? Forums are about expressing oppinions, even with ignorance lurking around each corner. One thing is clear - accuse others as much as you like - you have not really done your homework either. So why not learn from some of the responses instead of grabbing your .45? Now let's hear it for 'bottleneck' and 'slide' players alike!!! :wink:
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Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby JakeyVimto » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:41 pm

Laurie, on behalf of ignorant self promotors everywhere: Welcome to the big road!!

Why, you're a bundle of laughs, aren't you?

:mrgreen:

Really, meaningful conversation would be a lot easier if you came in just a little slower and less didactic, maybe?

We're really quite a pleasant fun-loving bunch when you get to know us....

j
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Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby tobiepsg » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:51 pm

A comment on JD's DOBRO TECHNIQUE course (see http://www.elderly.com/videos/items/300-DVD161.htm):
Learn ... bar pull-offs, hammer-ons, forward and reverse bar slants, string pulls... etc
.
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Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby Steinar Gregertsen » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:04 pm

laurieforti wrote:Therefore, bottleneck has superior stylistic variance, and is more musically-complex and rich.



Laurie, with all due respect, a blanket statement like that is ignorant at best.
I have played bottleneck style for some 30 years and have focused heavily on lap style playing for the last 5 years, I think I know the pros and cons of both styles pretty well. If you're narrowing it down to 'pure' delta blues then I can understand what you mean to a certain degree (though lap style playing is not unknown in delta blues), but if that's the case then you have a very narrow view of what constitutes stylistic variance and musically complexity and richness.

Here's two names you should check out for great delta style blues played lap style:
Black Ace - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7WiZvSflTs
Watermelon Slim - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeMRIu43qjg

Have you ever spent time seriously trying to learn to play the lap steel?

Steinar
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Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby ricochet » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:08 pm

So Laurie's not a spammer.

What an odd way to start with a first post on a board, though! :roll:
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Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby allanlummox » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:41 pm

I'm unclear - have I just been insulted?


What an unpleasant individual.
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Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby tobiepsg » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:48 pm

I'm unclear - have I just been insulted? What an unpleasant individual.


Ha ha! Your remark is classical and gave me a good laugh - wish I could see your face while writing it... :lol:
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Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby rustyslide » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:56 pm

laurieforti wrote:>… Typically a long post like this would be written in response to a query from another member, or, if it's the start of a thread, have a preamble or conclusion broaching discussion or other contribution.
. . . . .Anyone understand this?


:blink:

I really don't see what's so hard about the paragraph I wrote, but then, I wrote it so I already know what the words mean. Is this more understandable?
An essay-like post is usually a response to another person's question. In the cases where it's the opening post, there is usually either a preface or conclusion asking one or more questions. You didn't ask any questions, which makes the tone of your post: "This is the way things are. I know what I'm talking about.", rather than "This is what I think, what do you think?".


I would like to think that this puts my "pejorative" response in perspective, along with Dan's.

As for shameless self-promotion, none of the people who've posted in this thread are here shilling for their band or brand (and yes, we do have those around, look at the empty threads started by agents, managers, singers, and guitar makers (spot the Gibson shill, 50 points!)).

laurieforti wrote:I think the concept was that I have never heard anyone else play Delta Blues in C and D in Open G. Has anyone?


There have been occasional posts on here about "cross key" playing in open-tunings over the years, if you care to look. Perhaps someone will provide an example that you can hear on vinyl if the contemporary acoustic blues artists on this forum lack the credibility you demand.

laurieforti wrote:What, if anything, is this supposed to mean? The –geometry- of necks of bottles, HINT: hollow cylinders, is IDENTICAL regardless of the material of construction.


OMGZ, WRITING IN CAPS WILL SURELY MAKE YOUR ARGUMENT BETTER!!!11! :wha:

"HINT": a => b != b => a
All bottlenecks are hollow cylinders, but all hollow cylinders are not bottlenecks.

---

As an aside, and please don't take the following as an ad hominem attack, why do your paragraphs begin with a series of periods? And yes, I've heard of an ellipsis, but this is hardly the place or time. There's also a quoting mechanism to more easily distinguish your responses from the text you are responding to.
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Re: Bottleneck vs. “slide”

Postby tobiepsg » Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:07 pm

Steinar Gregertsen wrote:I have played bottleneck style for some 30 years and have focused heavily on lap style playing for the last 5 years, I think I know the pros and cons of both styles pretty well

Now I may not know the other artists on this forum too well, but take my word for it - if Steinar says it, then that's how it is. Take the man's opinion as worthy - and listen to his lapsteel music if you like - it's amazing stuff!
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