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RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2003 6:39 pm
by bluesmouse
Hi David,
I hear you with the downloading music thing- I never manage to download songs successfully on my 'puter.
I think it would be great if this became a regular event!
But please don't feel that you have nothing to contribute- Everyone's songs will be posted to me personally, so you won't have to put them onto a computer. And you can record it on whatever format is available- just tape it straight onto a home stereo if needs be! I would prefer it if people could send their song in a CD format but don't worry if not- I can always transfer it to a CD myself when it gets here.
I have read many of your posts, both current and in the archives, since I joined this site David and I have found much of your knowledge on blues and related stuff to be valuable so I am sure I would find your guitar playing to be equally so. I do hope you reconsider and decide to send a song in because we all have different styles/techniques that make us different and I think that this is what would make the CD a varied and interesting listening experience.

RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 1:03 am
by srvlives
[updated:LAST EDITED ON May-27-03 AT 09:10 PM (EST)]So Bluesmouse, we can record straight onto an audio tape and you can convert to cd, yeah?

Can I also suggest that when you send your cut in you give a little detail about the gear you used to record it, and should we subject Blueswriter to a copy for review?.... sorry Craig :)

See you at the
[|Big Road Blues OzFest 2003]

RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 1:16 am
by cas
This is such a great idea!

I am definately in for a cd when it's available, but like David don't believe I'll subject you to my version of guitar torturing. I'm not sure I actually know a whole song all the way thru anyway.

Looking forward to hearing y'all though...Carol

RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 6:54 am
by bluesmouse
Yep an audio tape is okay if that is all that's available. I think I can convert it to a CD by playing it through the computer soundcard- I'm hoping Stumblin will be able to help me out with this :)
Yes I agree- it would be good if people could send in a little info with their song such as their BRB nickname (obviously), when the song was recorded (if you can remember), gear used and any other interesting facts like if it is an original composition or something.
I'll start sending my mailing address to all the people who are interested tomorrow.

CAS- I would love to hear your guitar torturing!- I hope you also change your mind and decide to send in something but it doesn't matter if not, maybe you'll feel ready for it on a future BRB album.

RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 2:58 pm
by ricochet
Hey, y'all can't play any worse than I do! I'll make you look good, don't worry.

RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 3:10 pm
by david
Bluesmouse, I appreciate the kind words. But, as Aristotle said (sort of) there is a big difference between knowing how its done and knowing how to do it.

If I can find a way to record something I might send it along just so other board members will know their playing isn't really that bad after all. The fringe defines the center, so my role in this might just be to make more of you mainstream.

One thing for sure, none of you enjoy playing more than I do. Some folks play guitar, some of us play with a guitar. If I really wanted to scare folks away, I would sing.


RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 5:55 pm
by stumblin
David, surely it can't be all that bad!?!
One time when I was busking, some guys stood by listening, then told me I couldn't sing (I'm paraphrasing here, you understand).
I already knew that, but I was really hurt by it and stopped singing for a long time.
Now I try to practice the voice every day and I think it's a lot better now than it ever was. Course I'm a bit older now, so the vocal cords are a bit more knackered/worn-in!
Keep having a go, don't let snidey comments or your own uncertainties get in the way.
What I'm trying to say is:
Have a bit of faith in yourself, bro.

RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 9:55 pm
by dfduck
Someone mentioned using Bravenet free web hosting. I don't think this would very feasable. They only offer 100 Mb storage and a full CDDA iso image is about 650 Mb. Someone else said mp3's don't sound as good as CDDA's... 128kbps (bits per second) 44Hz IS CD quality. You can make mp3's with "better" quality than CD.

Someone pointed out the possible copyright problems putting cover tunes on a public web site. And easy fix for that would be a password protected web directory and only give BRB members the password via email and not post it on this public readable web forum.

I administer a fast web server in Connecticut (3000 miles from me) and the server owner "stuck" me with a task last night, not realizing how many "hundreds" of hours it is going to take me, so he "owes me" big time. So a few gig hard drive space on the server should be no problem. And I can speak with him tonight about setting up an FTP directory we could use for posting/retrieving works in progress and final projects and such... if you all decide you want to go this route that is. My suggestion would be to post MP3 as well as ISO cd images for those with the bandwidth to download them and knowlege to burn them. That would save some snail mailing and reduced overhead costs. Label graphics and liner texts could also be posted on a web site for download. I do have cd label design/print setup but the cost to do that might be somewhat prohibitive with the cost of labels, printer ink cartridges, and mailing them to the designated cd burner / distribution locations. I know "I" couldn't finance that myself. I'm a poor boy; my income is whats left of a dissability check after child support x4 is taken out of it.

I do have time I can offer though, if I can help in digitizing from tape or final mixing or whatever. I may not be good looking, and don't really have any music talent to offer as I gave up guitar a year ago and only been playing harp 5 weeks now. But time.. I got time.

I can also offer a #bigroadblues channel on a small well mannored IRC (Internet Relay Chat) network I have been admin on for over a decade. Where we could have live conference chats, if that is of any interest to anyone.


RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 11:08 pm
by bluesmcgoo
That's mighty generous, Duck. Thanks!

Duck - Maybe you could give me some advice on a point or two. My recording plans are to run through my board either direct to DAT, or into my ADAT, then mix it to DAT. Then into the stereo mic input in the back of my computer. I was looking at Cakewalk 2003. Would that be useful to get the music to CD - in the CD format? I don't have a dedicated CD burner, so I'm going to have to get the old 'puter involved and I'm a little unsure of how to get from DAT to CD. I'm clear on getting to mp3 format, but not the "standard" CD format. Any wisdom on it would be much appreciated.

As for the copyright infringement...I was under the impression that the two critical factors involved are whether or not you make money off of someone elses music without compensating them, and whether or not you give them credit for the music.

As long as we don't make money from this, and as long as we give credit to the owner or creator of the music, are we not covered from liability? Am I off-base here?

RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 1:55 am
by rustyslide
> Someone mentioned using Bravenet free web hosting. I don't
>think this would very feasable. They only offer 100 Mb
>storage and a full CDDA iso image is about 650 Mb. Someone
>else said mp3's don't sound as good as CDDA's... 128kbps
>(bits per second) 44Hz IS CD quality. You can make mp3's
>with "better" quality than CD.

actually, an Mp3 is worse than CD audio because of the way the compression works. The sampling rates might be the same, but it still removes data; mp3 encoding strips off sounds in frequency ranges that are inaudible and less important to the human ear. Ergo, it might sound almost as good, but you can tell the difference, especially through a good stereo.

I think mp3s are great, but they can't match CD quality.

ramble ramble ramble
I got ramblin' on my mind.

RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 3:50 am
by cas
<<CAS- I would love to hear your guitar torturing!- I hope you also change your mind and decide to send in something but it doesn't matter if not, maybe you'll feel ready for it on a future BRB album.>>

Thanks for the encouragement ::kisses:: Seriously, I'm just not very good....yet. I'll give it a think or 2.

If you want/like/need to sing then do it. I 2nd Stumblin on that. I love to sing--doesn't matter if anyone likes it or not. You should hear me in my truck--I'm really good when when no one can hear me! Sing!! Carol

RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 1:46 pm
by ricochet
[updated:LAST EDITED ON May-29-03 AT 09:46 AM (EST)]Leave a tape recorder on in your truck when nobody else can hear you. :7

RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 2:19 pm
by bluesmouse
Well David and Carol- I would love to hear you both so I hope you do decide to record something, even if its on a tape player or something. Get practising some Muddy, Elmo or R.J. and get it down on that tape! I only just manage to bluff it with that old bottleneck myself.

Hi Duck, well your generous offer has got me thinking,I must admit, -thank you very much. How's about we do it both ways, so that it is convenient for the computer people and those with slower servers etc.? We could post them up on a website and mail them out to people who would prefer that. How would you feel about everybody sending their songs to you Duck, would that be okay? I was just thinking that it seems like you have better facilities for transfering any tapes that come in on to CD etc. Then you could post them all up on a website. If you sent me and a few others a CD of the finished compilation then we could mail that out to people who would prefer to receive the music by post. We could have the artwork and song information on the website (if that's okay with you Rusty!) and then people could print it out from there themselves.
What do you think Duck, would this be too much hassle for you? I could always send you the finished compilation on CD myself if you haven't got time to do that part of things.
Anyway, let me know what you think and thanks again for the offer :)

A BRB live conference room sounds like a great idea! I guess I would have to get up early in the morning to talk to most of you :)


RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 8:49 pm
by dfduck

I would start by plugging your DAT/ADAT into the LINE input on your computer. Then open the "Volume Controls" window (Start Menu > Programs > Entertainment > Volume Control (at least in win2k thats how you get to it)) then go to the menu Options > Properties and choose "Recording" (Windows always has to make everything such a hastle to get to...) and select the Line input. Start with the volume control way down low and go up from there. If the Line input is too low "then" go to the Mic input on the computer. Select the Mic and again start with the gain low and raise it. You're better off recording a bit low than too high and oversaturate your recording. You can always adjust it up but there is no way to get back what is clipped when the gain is too high. If you still can't get sufficient volume from the Mic input click the Advanced button and turn on the 20db boost.

Cakewalk 2003. Are you refering to Cakewalk Pyro 2003 ? I'm not familiar with this software but read about it on their web site. Looks like a nice piece of software for $49 and should do what you want. Though you could get the job done using several free softwares like Audacity for recording and NTI CD-Maker for creating CDDA's. Myself I usually use Sonic Foundry Sound Forge for recording and Nero for CD burning (It came with my CDRW drive). Depends on how frugal (cheap) you are, if you can justify spending $49 to have an all-in-one software then it is a good choice. I'm a cheap sombich though and don't mind using 3 or more programs to get the job done.

For best quality digitize using the highest bitrate and Hz your computer can handle. If you have onboard sound chips (built into the motherboard) the highest you can probably use is 44kHz (44.1 I'm just lasy). But if you have a decent sound card you should use at least 48kHz, 96k and 192kHz if you can (I can't). And probably minimum 192kbps. As Rustyslide pointed out, 128kbps MP3 is not CD quality because the compression clips the high and low frequencies. Though I do believe a CDDA is 128kbps, but no compression. The problem that may arise with this project and using high bitrates is the file sizes are exponentially larger, and many of us (including myself) are on slow dialup connections. Swapping tracks back and forth could take "hours" to download. Which is fine by me; I only get 28kbaud connections but set large downloads up when I got to bed. But not everyone likes to leave their computer on when they're not at the console. And some may even have limited connect time per day/month with their ISP's. And many countries charge even for local phone calls, so very large track files could end up costing them a large phone bill. Just a few things to consider while pondering sound quality vs individuals internet connection restrictions and possible costs. In doing a group recording we need to keep in mind what the lowest bitrate/Hz is of that group. If you record a 320kbps/48Hz sample one of the other guys may not be able to even play it or record his track at the same rates. Though you can up/down sample to match, the lower sampled tracks may sound out of place quality wise if all others are recorded higher than it.

On the copyright issue, I think you are correct. As long as we are not making profit from this project I think as long as we credit the original artists that is all we need to do. Though RIAA may have a different opinion... Mr. McCaffrey would like a beurocratic cut of the pie if you just "think" about a song, and your first born if you "perform" it. (I notice he no longer has the site, it is now Meaning it is apparently no longer a [ha] non-profit organization but is now a [for-profit] Company.)


The problem with everyone sending their songs to me is I only have a 28kbaud modem connection here at home. And my snail mail is very unreliable.. I often don't even get my bills, let alone important stuff :) I chatted with the server admin last night and have set aside 1 Gig HD space for us to use (I'll get more if we need it). And as soon as we can agree here on a login name and secure way to propegate the password to BRB members only, I can set up an FTP site where we can upload works in progress and final projects. He has reliable snail mail and the FTP server is on his computer, so I may be able to work somthing out with him. He would already have access to all final projects FTP'd in. And has the ability to burn the master CD and snail mail it to you. He'd probably do that for an honorable mention in the liner notes :)

There are potential security issues having a global login/pw though. Like if one member got "mad" for some reason they have the potential of being able to delete everyone elses work. There would have to be a lot of trust between BRB members. Warning: I am what is known as a BOFH (UNIX weenies know what that means); Bastard Operator From Hell. Every action is logged, including the persons IP. So if there were any "funny business" it would be a simple task for me to figure out who it was. And I can and would deal with them accordingly.

I am also working on a web interface for uploading/downloading works in progress and final projects for those that can't figure out how to use an FTP client.

I almost set up the IRC channel last night but I was sick as a dog (24 hour sars) and spent most the day in bed. First I guess I should find out if PappyJ Watts has any objection to our using his "bigroadblues" name for the IRC channel, FTP login name, and web directory name. How 'bout that PappyJ?
If PappyJ says it's alright to use the name then I will set up a permanent #bigroadblues channel. Otherwise we will need to agree on a different name for it here.

If you would like to "test drive" IRC, I suggest using a free client called XChat (for Linux and Windows, I don't know about Mac.. Ircle ?) at most everyone I know agrees it is a much better and comfortable program to use than mIRC or Pirch. In XChat Server List there is "ARCNet", choose the server closest to you. I use since it is closest to me. I am most always on the #linuxusa channel as DFDuck; /join #linuxusa
The only difference for a BRB channel would be entering the channel name we decide on rather than #linuxusa. Files, like track swapping, can also be done in IRC using it's DCC (Direct Client to Client) protocol rather than using the FTP server. That of course means you would have to both be online at the same time. If you're swapping with someone in another part of the world it may be easier to use the FTP server.

Have I rambled long enough yet?

"Everyone is entitled to my opinions." -- D.F. Duck

RE: A compilation CD of ourselves f

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 9:39 pm
by bluesmcgoo
Thanks Duck!

You "Da Man!"

I think, now, I'll be able to feel my way through that. Things were a whole lot easier when you could just record to multi-track (tape), mix to a master (tape), and then spit out TAPES. Technology's great, but I feel like I'm getting a little long in the tooth to learn new tricks. At least like I used to learn things...intuitively.

Thanks again Duck!